Discussion:
Air France 447
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JF Mezei
2009-06-30 21:22:19 UTC
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Here are two shots taken inside the plane before it crashed.
AF 447 was an overnight flight.

Unless there were aliens with flashlights strong enough to illuminate
the sky AND ocean surface, this picture depicts a daytime scene and was
likely shot in a studio.


Seriously though, considering the tail fin broke off relatively cleanly,
I am reminded of the AA A300 crash in New York in 2001. Is it possible
that a very strong gust of wind would have broken off the tail fin ,
rendering the plane uncontrollable ?

If the pilot entered a thunderstorm, could sideways wind gusts be strong
enough to break off the tail fin ?
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w***@googlemail.com
2009-07-01 07:09:32 UTC
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Post by JF Mezei
            Here are two shots taken inside the plane before it crashed.
various unconnected images have been posted tagged af447.
The wing of a small GA plane, the debris from the perpignan
crash, ...
( hmm, don't see JH post in google groups. )
Post by JF Mezei
AF 447 was an overnight flight.
Unless there were aliens with flashlights strong enough to illuminate
the sky AND ocean surface, this picture depicts a daytime scene and was
likely shot in a studio.
Seriously though, considering the tail fin broke off relatively cleanly,
I am reminded of the AA A300 crash in New York in 2001. Is it possible
that a very strong gust of wind would have broken off the tail fin ,
rendering the plane uncontrollable ?
This is still widely open due to lack of information.

In contrast to AA 587 parts of the fuselage/tail were still attached
to
the horizontal stabiliser, ( and the rudder is intact ).
In the AA 587 case the attachment lugs failed thus the part came off
rather cleanly, but we know that the AA587 HS detached well beyond
design targets. ( see the NTSB report )

wid
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w***@googlemail.com
2009-07-01 09:50:40 UTC
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Post by JF Mezei
            Here are two shots taken inside the plane before it crashed.
AF 447 was an overnight flight.
Single aisle cabin too.
AND it's a rather old hoax:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_photos_gol_737_crash.htm

wid
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JF Mezei
2009-07-01 13:45:07 UTC
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Here are two shots taken inside the plane before it crashed.
There are not only 2 pictures, but also HQ video as well:



And this was clearly shot inside Oceanic flight 815 (SYD-LAX).

The severe turbulence begins at 05:36, fuselage breakup happens at 08:08.


This was not a reverse Tardis where the inside was smaller than the
outside. Throufghout the clip, you can clear see this is a twin aisle
aircraft. It becomes less obvious after the tail falls off because you
no longer see the bulkhead with the 2 doorways.

In this footage, it shows a twin engine widebody. Probably a 777. But I
had always thought 815 operated in a 747-400.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Flight_815 confirms this was a
777, although some of the fuselage sections of the crashed aircraft were
actually from a L1011. (ex Delta).

So this couldn't possibly have been an A330 from AF. Besides, there is
the minor issue of the Video having been posted in 2007, before the AF
crash :-)
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JF Mezei
2009-07-02 12:35:40 UTC
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Here are two shots taken inside the plane before it crashed.
http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/monde/ameriques/0,,4449909,00-de-fausses-images-du-crash-extraites-de-lost-.html

Looks like a bolivian TV netowrk (PAT) was a bit naive and published,
during its main news programme last thursday these 2 images as being
from AF 447 (when we know they were from Oceanic 815).

The PAT broadcast used the same name (Paulo Muller) as the alleged owner
of the camera, but made him out as a brasilian theatre actor.


Really, you'd think that news media would know the differences between
the interior of a 777 (Oceanic 815) and a 330 (AF 447) and not make such
mistakes :-) :-() :-) :-) :-) :-)

(Makes me wonder if they started to discuss the handcuffed passenger on
the pictures :-) :-)
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JF Mezei
2009-07-02 15:29:46 UTC
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The July 2 interim report is now available.

The english version is at:

http://www.bea.aero/anglaise/actualite/actu.htm

On the right, you will see a block with Flight AF 447, and you can click
on "Interim Report".
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John Mayson
2009-07-08 03:26:11 UTC
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Post by JF Mezei
Really, you'd think that news media would know the differences between
the interior of a 777 (Oceanic 815) and a 330 (AF 447) and not make such
mistakes :-) :-() :-) :-) :-) :-)
Given the gross errors I have seen over the years I don't think anyone
in the media would have a clue. Aircraft crashes are BIG news. I
would think the big news organizations would take some time to learn
SOMETHING about aviation.

Some recent ones I recall off the top of my head are...

1. A 727 jumbo-jet crashing into the WTC.
2. An Airbus A380 commuter plane crashing on approach to Buffalo.
3. Absolute amazement that two first-officers can land an airplane
after the captain has died.

What worries me is on issues I know something about the media most
often gets something wrong. So, why am I to believe them on issues I
know nothing about?

John
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John Mayson <***@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA
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Roland Perry
2009-07-08 08:03:22 UTC
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In message
Post by John Mayson
What worries me is on issues I know something about the media most
often gets something wrong. So, why am I to believe them on issues I
know nothing about?
You shouldn't, but at least you know you shouldn't and can therefore
view all their reports with a healthy scepticism and be better equipped
to notice the "question they didn't ask".
--
Roland Perry
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JF Mezei
2009-07-02 15:41:11 UTC
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(resent, I had wrotten wrong address in first message).

Something a bit more serious than the relationship betwen AF447 and
Oceanic 815... This is a live transcription from a press conference in
french. Pardon translation :-(

ON july 2, there was press conferance:

Control Atlantico, 01:35:43 last voice radio contact in HF. Aircraft was
at limit of brasilian radar range.

02:01 aircraft tried to contact ADSC system in DAKKAR but there was
failure, probably due to the flight not yet entered in the compuyer at
DAKKAR. Brasil had sent them the flight info at 01:40, and by 02:10, it
was in the Dakkar computers, but not sure when it was actually entered.
While the flight info was transmitted to Dakkar, Brasil did not confim
that Dakkar had taken over flight, and Dakkar had not confirmed to
Brasil that it had taken over control of flight. AKA: Brasil sent the
info early, but never confirmed when aircraft left its jurisdiction.



Atlantico tried 3 times to contact AF 447 without success.

ACARS first message at 02:10.
24 ACARS messages emitted by aircraft until 02:14


Normal weather for june in this area. There was a line of thunderstorm,
but nothing abnormal for this season.


3 types of messages:
-messages with control orgs.
-operational messages (aircraft position, weather info)
-maintenance messages

For the flight were 26 ACARS.
2 first messages related to toilet early after take off.

24 messages:

-incohérence in measured speeds

Messages indicated that due to Probe pitot anomaly, automated systems
were taken offline (auto pilot, control law, auto throttle etc).


3rd Pitot is backup.

Plane due at Tazil control point at 02:20 to report its position. It
didn't. But missing position reports are not uncommon in that area.

There was no transfer of control between Atlantico and Dakar.

Between 08:00 and 08:30, Madrid and Brest start the process of declaring
emergency because plane never arrived in europe.(later on: it was at
07:30 that Air France realised that they were not getting information
about their aircraft).


51 bodies recovered
640 pieces have been recovered, from all portions of aircraft from
radome to the tail.

No life vest was found inflated.

Tail fin was ripped from back to front, small lateral force from the left.


Crew rest: huge deformation of floor. (this was a container in cargo deck).

Current thinking:

Aircraft was not destroyed in flight.

Aircraft hit water horizontal, with large vertical speed.

Nothing found on ground yet. Research for black boxes to continue until
july 10.

On July 14th another type of research will begin with other equipment.


3 aircraft flew about the same course within the same time period:
IB 340: 12 minutes after AF447
AF 330: 37 Minutes after AF447
Lufthansa : 20 minutes after AF447.

These 3 went around thunder cells between ORARO and TASIL. Detour from
10 to 80NM. All had difficulty getting in touch with DAKAR in HF. All
related strong turbulence.

HF radio contacts are often difficult in that zone.


No passenger made satellite telephone calls from the aircraft.

All 24 messages are due to the loss of speed measurements.


About 28,000 square km of sea bottom need to be scanned, about 18,000
have been scanned for the FDR/CVR as of today. (60%)

Loss of radio contact between Brasil and Senegal (Dakkar) is common.

At 07:30, they started to suspect loss of aircraft, in part because
aircraft was not reponding to ACARS messages sent by AF maintenance.

ACARS messages are not necessarily transmitted in the same order as the
computers generate them. ACARS time stamps are 1 minute resolution. But
FDR messages are precisely timed.

On one the inquiry focus is on the transfer of control between south
america to africa to europe and why a downed plane wasn't detected for
many hours. Seems there are frequent problems with managing flight
transfers.



70400 kg of fuel loaded, which is normal for this flight. Enough fuel to
go around storms if needed.

So far, based on position reports from aircraft every 10 minutes, it
appears to be a straight line path.

Starting 14 july to 15 august, instead of sonar to hear pings, they will
try to locate shapes.


Aircraft parts will be repatriated to France. But bodies are a more
difficult legal issue and remain in Brasil for now.
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w***@googlemail.com
2009-07-02 16:35:41 UTC
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Post by JF Mezei
No life vest was found inflated.
are they selfinflating?
Post by JF Mezei
Tail fin was ripped from back to front, small lateral force from the left.
That would indicate forward speed at moment of impact ( plus rotation
about
the vertical axis ? )
Post by JF Mezei
Crew rest: huge deformation of floor. (this was a container in cargo deck).
They found the Captain and one FA afaik, seems to have been in the
rest container ?
Post by JF Mezei
Aircraft was not destroyed in flight.
Aircraft hit water horizontal, with large vertical speed.
< from the BAE en report, page 2 >
visual examination showed that the airplane was not destroyed in
flight ; it appears to have struck the surface of the sea in a
straight
line with high vertical acceleration.
</>

different translations?
with large vertical speed ( your translation )
verus
with high vertical acceleration ( BAE report )

( all i know about french is the latin I had in school ;-/ )

OK, looks like more waiting.

wid
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