Discussion:
Boeing 787 first flight
(too old to reply)
JF Mezei
2009-12-14 23:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Update:

Live web cast begins at 09:40 PST (17:40 GMT, 12:40 EST). On Tuesday
December 15th.

http://787firstflight.newairplane.com/ffindex.html

On the right, there is a "webcast" tab.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
JF Mezei
2009-12-15 19:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Congratulations to Boeing employees on the first take off of the 787.
(At the time I am writing this, it hasn't landed yet, so technically, I
can't say first flight :-).

The 787 took off at about 10:27 local time. (adding 27 minutes to the
over 2 year delay :-) landing expected at about 15:30 pacific time (but
landing time can be very variable)

BBC and CNN provided considerable live coverage. Sometimes with the same
images as the web site's feed, sometimes with different feeds from
helicopters. There was very little delay between "live" and "web" coverage.

Within a couple of weeks, Boeing should have a pretty good idea of the
aircraft's real life performance.

This should provide a considerable amoumt of goodwill for Boeing and
makes the 787 a real aircraft while the 350 is still virtual.

Big question now is how succesful Boeing will be at fine tuning the
design and production methods so that production can be ramped up to
make final assembly easy (no travel work, no fixing of wrinkles in
compisite surfaces etc).

Things should now begin to move more quickly, now that this brick wall
which has been nagging Boeong for so long has been broken.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
JF Mezei
2009-12-15 21:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Excuse: poor weather.

First test flight had to be cut short due to weather. (range is limited
in order to stay within range of telemetry transmitters/antennas.

Landing at 13:33 instead of 15:30.

Airplane landed fine. Still had 2 engines attached to wings :-)

AS weight was transfered onto the landing gear, you could clearly see
the wings reduce their upwards curvature.


Boeing had over 300,000 viewers for the takeoff.


Will be interesting to learn if they retracted the landing gear during
the flight.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
JF Mezei
2009-12-15 21:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Interesting comment from the Boeing PR operson anymating the web broadcast:

The 787 will replace the 767 and sit in the middle, between the 747 and
737.

Wonder if this is now official Boeing positioning, or wether that was
just the announcer making things look simpler.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
Miles Bader
2009-12-16 04:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
The 787 will replace the 767 and sit in the middle, between the 747 and
737.
Wonder if this is now official Boeing positioning, or wether that was
just the announcer making things look simpler.
Hm, well, it is between the 747 and 737 in size so... are you referring
to the fact that they mentioned the 747 and not the 777 (a shame, since
I like flying on the 777 much more!)?

-Miles
--
.Numeric stability is probably not all that important when you're guessing.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
JF Mezei
2009-12-16 05:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miles Bader
Hm, well, it is between the 747 and 737 in size so... are you referring
to the fact that they mentioned the 747 and not the 777 (a shame, since
I like flying on the 777 much more!)?
Yep, the 777 was conspicuous by its absence in that commentary. When you
combine this with the recent United Airlines announcement that it was to
replace its 747 and 777s with 350s, it makes me wonder if the future of
the 777 is much shorter than expected.

Perhaps the 787-900, once it gets going, will totally cannabalise 777
sales. How many 777 orders are still in the books ?


How automated/efficient is the 777 production line compared to what the
787 line will be once all production glitches will be ironed out ?

Is it possible that the 787 will end up being much cheaper to produce
and it would then make a lot of sense to end the 777 and focus on 787 ?
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
matt weber
2009-12-16 20:13:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:06:42 -0500, JF Mezei
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Miles Bader
Hm, well, it is between the 747 and 737 in size so... are you referring
to the fact that they mentioned the 747 and not the 777 (a shame, since
I like flying on the 777 much more!)?
Yep, the 777 was conspicuous by its absence in that commentary. When you
combine this with the recent United Airlines announcement that it was to
replace its 747 and 777s with 350s, it makes me wonder if the future of
the 777 is much shorter than expected.
Perhaps the 787-900, once it gets going, will totally cannabalise 777
sales. How many 777 orders are still in the books ?
Not likely the 777-300ER is substantially larger than the 787-900,
which is also smaller then the A350-1000. I suspect the current
777-300ER backlog is one of the reasons we have not seen the 787-10
announced. However I think it is a question of when, rather than if..

787-900 A350-1000 777-300ER
Length 63 74 74 meters
MGTOW 540,000 657,000 775,000 pounds
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
Jon Monreal
2009-12-16 04:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
The 787 will replace the 767 and sit in the middle, between the 747 and
737.
Wonder if this is now official Boeing positioning, or wether that was
just the announcer making things look simpler.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
Sounds like the announcer trying to explain things (which one could
assume would be more directed at a casual audience).

However, the 787 (and its variants) does sit in that range. The only
part I believe they might be wrong on is the upper end being the 747;
instead, I would propose that is the 777 (and Airbus's A350) at that
upper end, followed by VLAs such as the 747 and A380.

I just hope that Boeing's decision to make the aircraft all-composite
will turn out to be the right one (not that I want to see Airbus lose
ground or anything, but Boeing needs some good news).
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
JF Mezei
2009-12-16 19:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Monreal
I just hope that Boeing's decision to make the aircraft all-composite
will turn out to be the right one (not that I want to see Airbus lose
ground or anything, but Boeing needs some good news).
Composite bicycles have existed for some time now. At first, the forks
remained in metal allows because they didn't quite trust composites in
that shape (fork takes a lot fo stress when you hit potholes, brake etc).

But as manufacturing methods improved, they did find ways to build
bicycle forks with composites, and you don't hear about composite
bicycles breaking apart even when used on the notoriously bad Québec roads.


Both Boeing, and (especially) Airbus have been using composites for some
time now for various parts of the aircraft. Lessons were learned and
experience gained. (for instance delamination issue uncovered with the
AA A300-600 crash in Queens NY).

They didn't set out to have flaws in the Comet. They just didn't think
about stress issues in square windows. They didnt set out to have bugs
in the A320 software, but neither Airbus nor the FAA had devised testing
to ensure that changing cabin temperature would not interfere with
engine throttles. It had never been thought possible because on
conventional aircraft that was really no way for one to influence the other.


Boeing would know about the Comet, and it would know about composites
behaving differently, and I suspect that as part of its NASA research
project, it fully tested stress issues with the interface between window
frame and composite fuselage. (especially since the 787 windows are much
bigger).

Quality assurance of computer software has matured to a point where FBW
systems are fairly reliable from the start.

The side-of-body issue is worrysome. If computer simulations weren't
precise enough to predict the problem, what else was not predicted
properly ?

Thankfully, this is what flight testing is all about. Airbus also had to
do some tweaking of the A380 structure to re-enforce some areas found to
be weak during flight testing.

The big question is whether flight testing will uncover any problems
that may pop up 10 years from now as aircraft age.


Coming back to production: in a way, what appears to be a silly decision
to continue to produce 787 parts even though they couldn't figure out
how to make #1 work may have been a very smart one from a safety point
of view:

Alenia managed to get its first couple of fuselage plugs out "perfect".
But when it moved into production mode, it ended up producing 12 or 20
(can't remember) plugs with wrinkles in them. This is obviously a
reproducible problem and it should be easy to verify that the corrected
process will eliminate that problem. Furthermore, by producing so many
parts, one would think that any other production flaw would have been
uncovered.


Obviously, I personally consider the first 20 or so aircraft to be
"beta" models and would rather fly on a 787 whose serial number of
greater than 25. But if the patched up, assembled-multiple-times,
rivets-changed-a-lot-of-times aircraft #1 manages to pass the
certification tests, then perhaps the rest of the first batch of 787
will be even safer, despite being imperfect.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
Jon Monreal
2009-12-16 23:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
The big question is whether flight testing will uncover any problems
that may pop up 10 years from now as aircraft age.
Agreed. While we clearly have far better systems in place to test
aircraft before they fly now than we did even a decade back, the jump
to the wider use of composites is a big one and there's always that
chance that the computer models fails to pick up on something that
could come up years down the road (such as how the 737 rudder problem
took a while to be found and fixed).

At any rate, I find the comparison to the Comet and Airbus's early FBW
systems interesting (mostly because Airbus has been an unqualified
success while the Comet was unfortunately quite the failure). I just
hope that if something does happen the 787 doesn't come to have a
reputation as an unsafe aircraft simply because it's composite. I'm
almost afraid that the media might go crazy with any little problem
with the 787 simply because it's composite and it might be seen as a
"cheaply made airplane." As we know, new technologies often face
barriers. What remains to be seen is whether the 787 will be a
"Comet", which ushered in a new era in air travel but was unpopular
due to its problems, or if it will be an "A320", which also changed
aviation and succeeded despite its early problems and "scariness" to
some.
--
misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to
***@airinfo.aero, and see http://mtai.airinfo.aero for the FAQ and policies.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...